## page was renamed from bug03 ## page was renamed from bug3 = SAGE Bug Squash Day 3 = The event will take place on '''THURSDAY September 20th, 2007''' and officially start at 10 am pacific standard time. It will go on for 12 hours (until 10pm) and some people will usually meet the day after and finish up some of the leftovers. Remember the "Twisted Rule" -- Don't work on '''anything''' unless there is a trac ticket for it. The results: http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/milestone/sage-2.8.5 * [[bug3/status| STATUS]] * [[bug3/irc| IRC log]] * [[bug3/Results| Results]] * The base version of SAGE we'll start with is here: sage-2.8.4.2.1, which you can upgrade to using "sage -upgrade" * The trac server with all the bugs is here: http://trac.sagemath.org * We will focus on the bugs listed here: TBA However, people with other interests can of course help out with fixing anything they want. * Write to wstein@gmail.com for an account on the bug tracker. * We'll all be on #sage-devel at irc.freenode.net. {{{ From Linux you can chat via a text console by installing "irssi", running it, and typing /SERVER add irc.freenode.net /SERVER irc.freenode.net /join #sage-devel }}} = Participants (with area they would like to work on) = 1. Michael Abshoff: Solaris port, Memleaks 1. Martin Albrecht: memleaks & maybe libSINGULAR enhancements 1. Nick Alexander (until 3pm). 1. Robert Bradshaw: 1. Timothy Clemans (evening maybe): Notebook bugs 1. Didier Deshommes: opensolaris (x86) port 1. Burcin Erocal: memleaks 1. Mike Hansen: combinatorics stuff, python-nose, misc. bug fixes. 1. Robert Miller: reproducing dsage bug 1. Bobby Moretti (after 5pm). 1. William Stein (10am -- 10pm): Integrating all the fixes as they come in, then releasing a new Sage version. 1. Tom Boothby (10am -- 5pm; 6pm -- 10pm): AbelianGroup 1. David Harvey: yeah bugs and stuff [[attachment:bugs.jpg|{{attachment:bugs.jpg}}]] = IRC = BUG3 irc log: [10:08] pulling from /Users/ncalexan/sage/spkg/build/sage-2.8.4.2 [10:08] searching for changes [10:08] adding changesets [10:08] adding manifests [10:08] adding file changes [10:08] added 592 changesets with 1040 changes to 321 files [10:09] (run 'hg update' to get a working copy) [10:09] abort: there is nothing to merge, just use 'hg update' or look at 'hg heads' [10:09] nothing changed [10:09] remote changed .hgtags which local deleted [10:09] (k)eep or (d)elete? k [10:09] ok, so it isn't leaking. [10:09] remote changed export which local deleted [10:09] (k)eep or (d)elete? k [10:09] 288 files updated, 0 files merged, 7 files removed, 0 files unresolved [10:09] Any ideas? [10:09] (While sage -upgrade was running) [10:09] so? [10:10] sage: b = a.__copy__() [10:10] sage: get_memory_usage() - s [10:10] 1.57421875 [10:10] sage: b = a.__copy__() [10:10] sage: get_memory_usage() - s [10:10] 1.98828125 [10:10] sage: b = a.__copy__() [10:10] sage: get_memory_usage() - s [10:10] 1.83203125 [10:10] oh, so copy is ok. sorry I'm a little slow getting started here, and saying dumb things. [10:11] burcin: [10:11] sage: s = get_memory_usage(); a = M.zero_matrix(); del a; get_memory_usage() - s [10:11] 0.0 [10:11] sage: s = get_memory_usage(); a = M.zero_matrix(); del a; get_memory_usage() - s [10:11] 0.0 [10:11] So there is no leak here. Move along. [10:11] *** mabshoff_ is now known as mabshoff|Cooking. [10:11] Anyway, could people introduce themselves quickly, say where they are, etc. [10:11] I don't assign to any object.. and it keeps increasing.. [10:12] That could be IPython caching output. [10:12] * ncalexan is Nick Alexander, in Irvine, California. [10:12] * mhansen is Mike Hansen in Madison, Wisconsin, U.S. [10:12] in fact it is: [10:12] sage: M.zero_matrix() [10:12] 500 x 500 dense matrix over Integer Ring [10:12] sage: _ [10:12] 500 x 500 dense matrix over Integer Ring [10:13] The last few outputs are cached... [10:13] burcin erocal, linz, austria [10:13] can we turn that off somehow? [10:13] william_stein: actually a lot more than the last few are cached. [10:13] burcin: yes, it can be configured. [10:13] burcin -- yes -- see ipythonrc in .sage [10:13] yes.. I think all are cached.. [10:13] /me is Martin Albrecht, London, UK [10:13] I'm william stein in Seattle, WA [10:14] who is boothby? [10:14] and where is he? [10:14] I'm boothby. [10:14] Right here. [10:14] jkantor is josh kantor, usually seattle, WA but currently on vacation in buffalo, NY. [10:15] Okfine, I'm Tom Boothby, in Seattle [10:15] OK, so the rules are (1) don't work on anything that isn't a trac ticket; (2) try to prefix lines with the trac #. [10:15] The goal is to fix as many bugs in Sage as possible today. [10:15] Michael Abshoff in Dortmund, Germany. [10:16] as bugs get fixed, I'll upload the fixes to the official hg repo, and people can hg_sage.pull() them... [10:16] Could we have a trac triage page again? That was fantastic. [10:17] Well, there are a bunch of patches qued at the 2.8.4.3 milestone. [10:17] And I think it would be great if mhansen's combinatorics patch could go in early. [10:17] *** mabshoff|Cooking is now known as mabshoff_. [10:17] Last time I checked it wasn't in trac (yet) [10:17] does the upgrade work correctly for you? [10:18] I haven't finished upgrading yet. [10:18] : No module named sage.misc.preparser_ipython [10:18] WARNING: Failure executing code: 'import sage.misc.preparser_ipython; sage.misc.preparser_ipython.magma_colon_equals=True' [10:18] --> roed_ has joined this channel (n=roed@MACLAURIN-SIXTEEN-NINETY-FOUR.MIT.EDU). [10:18] (Jan Willemson, Tartu, Estonia, but I will probably mostly be rather quiet:)) [10:18] Did "sage -br" fail for you. [10:18] mabshoff: #630. I didn't have time to finish it last night, but that's what I'll work on first. [10:18] Hi Jan, I don't recognize you from the list. Welcome! [10:19] the upgrade failed for me. not good. [10:19] i rushed this release. [10:19] and made it while on the linbox call. [10:19] sorry [10:19] hold on. [10:19] Don't worry -- this will focus the bug day like nothing else. [10:19] problem is flint. [10:20] should I disable it or fix that it isn't installed correctly? [10:20] Hi ... I actually have a SAGE issue that really bothers me, but that is documented only in the devel mailing list and is not a trac ticket (yet), so probably it is out of the focus today anyway [10:21] ah, maybe it isn't in the makefile. [10:21] janwil -- put it in trac. [10:21] janwil: do you have a trac account? [10:21] no [10:21] ok, I fixed the upgrade problem almost... not quite. [10:21] janwil: if it's easy to describe, message me and I will add it to trac. William might be a few minutes adding your account. [10:22] Actually, just use mine: [10:22] Hmm... perhaps not. [10:22] well, it's not easy to describe :( [10:22] :( [10:22] janwil -- email me with your requested login and low-quality password for fun. [10:22] I think janwil's issue is in trac with a patch by malb. [10:22] ah [10:23] well, that patch did not help the main issue I had [10:23] the maxima vs. your Linux distro issue, checking for th e number. [10:23] I will be looking at #445 this bothers me quite a lot, I'm not sure how far I'll get though [10:23] The script issue? That is also in trac. [10:23] oh, with the long script? [10:24] I think #445 is more or less a pexpect and Signal delivery issue. [10:24] We might need to modify it to just send SIGKILL [10:25] But I might be completely wrong :) [10:25] janwil: can you find the issues you have in trac? [10:25] I think #507 is one of them. [10:26] mabshoff_ / #445: yes something along the line of that [10:26] Do "sage -upgrade" then "sage -br". [10:26] #507 is a simple case .. I also have a problem that is reproducible in 4 cases out of 5 [10:26] Well, in the end we need to write a proper pexpect replacemnt anyway. [10:27] ok, I will try to put it to trac [10:27] janwil: could you build a Arch Linux vmware image? That way we could test on it regulary. [10:27] and this 4 out of 5 occurs on Ubuntu [10:28] William/700 where should the doctests for cvxopt and scipy go ? [10:28] Hi everybody -- I fixed the upgrade issue. If you just do "sage -upgrade" again then "sage -br" you'll be good. [10:28] okay, post the issues, hopefully someone will be able to reproduce them. [10:28] :) [10:28] jkantor -- good question. [10:28] In a file somewhere. [10:28] william_stein: is your gmail account ok to use for trac username application? [10:28] janwil -- yes. [10:29] jkantor -- I think there should be a SAGE_ROOT/devel/sage/sage/numerical directory [10:29] while you are at it: can you change my trac password to something less obvious and send me the updated password? [10:29] I was about to say that [10:29] Inside there you could put a .py file with a big triple quoted string that has tests of numpy, scipy, cvxopt, etc. [10:30] ok [10:31] #445 -- I'll work on that too right now. [10:31] I think it will be easy to fix. [10:31] jkantor: could I suggest you define somewhat relevant method names rather than one big string? In future, the testing interface will probably provide detailed feedback about what method the test was in. [10:32] We're not testing methods. [10:32] We're just testing that two libraries were actually installed. [10:32] The thing is that cvxopt and scipy like to silently pretend to be installed, but with most of their functionality [10:32] willam_stein: ok, sent it from my gmail account, so it should be delivered quite fast [10:32] gone if something goes slightly wrong when building. [10:32] :) [10:32] #445 -- has anybody replicated it? [10:33] jkantor -- make a trac ticket for what you're doing, so we will get one more extra point when you finish it :-) [10:33] hi, i'm david harvey, cambridge MA.... ten minutes walk away from the next sage days [10:34] I replicate this on a daily basis with SINGULAR [10:34] william_stein: in that case, shouldn't the doctests be testing that the missing functionality really is there? [10:34] that was about #445 [10:34] Most of the problems are missing symbols on importing modules [10:34] So if there is no exception, the functionality is there [10:34] <-- roed_ has left this server (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). [10:35] i'm starting with #635, which should be straightforward I hope [10:36] robert miller just showed up (in my office) [10:36] #635 -- good [10:39] #445 -- I just replicated with this input. It's evil. [10:39] R=QQ['x'] [10:39] f = R.random_element(5000) [10:39] g = magma(f) [10:39] g.IsIrreducible() [10:40] --> millster has joined this channel (n=robert@mdhcp175.math.washington.edu). [10:40] Important not on #445 -- it *only* happens in the notebook. [10:40] #445 I calculate GBs on a daily basis, equally evil [10:40] #445 -- malb -- do you agree? [10:40] really? [10:41] let me check [10:41] Yes. The same example pasted above works fine in the console. [10:41] hang on, need to rebuild SAGE (connection to sage.math is very slow) [10:41] ok [10:43] #445 -- probably the notebook is so agressively interrupting the sage process that is running magma, [10:43] that it interrupts it in the middle of actually killing the running magma. [10:43] It's two levels of pexpect going on. [10:44] so we should send a command first (kill-your-children) and interrupt then? [10:44] definitely not. [10:44] In fact that magma process shouldn't even get killed. [10:44] It should just get interrupted. [10:45] We should probably just send 1 interrupt signal from the notebook server to the Python process. [10:45] I.e., one "control C". [10:45] Let me look at the code. [10:45] line 1328 of server/notebook/worksheet.py [10:45] right now 3 ctrl-c's are sent when you hit escape or click "interrupt" in the notebook. [10:45] I'll try changing to 1. [10:46] okay, still building [10:47] Sorry, I was gone, but should be do any upgrade from 2.8.4.2 or is there another tarball? [10:48] #445 that workec well [10:49] good, my Singular problem seems unrelated then [10:50] P = PolynomialRing(QQ,10,'x') [10:50] I = sage.rings.ideal.Katsura(P) [10:50] I.groebner_basis() # forever! [10:50] Ctrl-C [10:50] from the command line [10:51] what function handles signals? [10:52] It's just keyboardinterrupt being handled in expect.py or possible singular.py [10:52] william/709 To be doctested the file just needs to be in the source tree, i don't need an all.py to import it or anything right? [10:52] yes. [10:52] #709 -- yes [10:55] #445 -- expect.py: interupt(...) is very relevant to what happens after ctrl-c is received... [10:55] I think. [10:56] william_stein: did you get my email? [10:56] Hmm, clisp.pdf missing stops the build. [10:56] janwil -- yep. [10:56] ncalexan you've had that problem before, no? [10:56] you have a weird setup of pdf tools. check sage-devel. [10:57] Yes... oh, thanks for the reminder. [10:57] That problem is related to some missing tool [10:57] #445 I got it [10:57] janwil -- you should have a trac account. [10:57] My "fix" for #445 breaks other things, so not good. [10:57] Weird. [10:58] ncalexan: You had the same problem at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel/browse_thread/thread/af701e5f8d428ad2 [10:58] williamstein: thanx, I have it now ... will try to create a ticket [10:58] thankx. [10:59] you need to fix your dvipdf :) [10:59] I do, but there's actually a hairy problem in the middle (with fink and X11) that I don't want to fix :) [10:59] but maybe now is the time. [10:59] interstingly the second google hit for "clisp.pdf missing" :) [11:00] #445 I figured out my problem with Singular, Singular has a signal handler which asks what to do [11:01] One wonders what the first hit is :) [11:01] http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fftp6.tw.freebsd.org%2FFreeBSD%2Fdevelopment%2FFreeBSD-CVS%2Fports%2Flang%2Fclisp%2Fpkg-plist%2Cv&ei=MrXyRv2OPI38nQP7lvnDDg&usg=AFQjCNHZRGUz_mjLv8ZnyL2s5uJAjAp66w&sig2=omEH8PW3FYRcm7xemWq7Tw :) [11:01] But I thing that varies depending on which country you google from :) [11:02] #635: not only did chris wuthrich change the precision in the doctests, he changed all the answers too. I have no idea what to make of all this. [11:02] #445 -- malb -- could you post an example that illustrates your porlbme at singular GB's? [11:02] the one I posted earlier: [11:02] P = PolynomialRing(QQ,10,'x') [11:03] I = sage.rings.ideal.Katsura(P) [11:05] I am off for the next hours or so, commuting home. [11:05] cu in a bit [11:05] cu [11:05] <-- mabshoff_ has left this server (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). [11:06] wstein: #635, it's very strange. I'm looking at a diff where chris changed the normalisation by 2p, which is what we had agreed, but I'm sure I also did the same thing! So I guess you probably never merged in my changes. [11:06] sorry. [11:08] that's okay. It's hard working on code like this where various people have different goals. Like chris probably doesn't care too much about whether the last digit is there or not; but when I'm playing with large primes, the last digit takes a lot of extra time! [11:08] #445 -- i just checked in a change that fixes the problem in the notebook. [11:08] I found another related bug while I was at it, that I'll pos. [11:10] good, I am still playing with Singular's special treatment [11:10] malb -- check out http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/710 [11:11] sage: n=factor(2^997-1) # then hit control C [11:11] then do [11:11] ouch [11:11] sage: gp.eval('factor(2^997-1)') # then hit control C [11:11] and boom!! [11:11] how can those two be related? [11:11] and it happens with any interface -- not just gp. [11:12] somehow the pari signal handling if seriously foobaring something about the state of Sage. [11:13] mhh, can you Ctrl-C twice for factor(2^997-1)? [11:14] for me factor(2^997-1) with 1 control-c immediately interrupts. [11:14] #710: on os x interrupting gp.eval('factor(2^997-1)') then fails [11:14] #710: on linux 64-bit it seg faults. [11:15] I'm going to close #445, since that's now fixed. [11:15] But we need a ticket for your katsura example. I'll try to replicate it and if so, open a ticket. [11:15] okay [11:15] should I include the script as a snippet in the ticket or should I attach it as a file? [11:15] Your choice. If a snippet, use {{{ and .[11:16] yes, I did use them, thanx [11:16] malb -- replicated. [11:16] Your bug will be easy to fix, I think. [11:17] #711 -- malb, your bug is now 711. [11:17] #445 is now fixed (unless people claim differently). [11:17] brb. [11:19] ok, submitted -- #712 (the reference to the component is probably wrong -- please excuse me) [11:23] janwil -- is it possible that your problem is a bug in maxima itself? [11:24] when I try your system it fails right off. [11:27] #712 -- ok, I'm working on this now. [11:28] it's a bug in maxima. [11:28] it's outputing "CAR: 2 is not a list" and dieing. [11:29] janwil -- we should make a clean file that inputs something into Maxima (not involving sage) and [11:29] produces that error, and report it on the maxima list. [11:29] william_stein: See #713 (the Singular interface bug with patch) [11:30] that's no fix. [11:30] #713 -- rejected. [11:30] We should never ever leave a process running that a user has to kill manually. [11:30] why? [11:30] No matter what. [11:30] i.e. Ctrl-D is not an option? [11:31] No. But the print "WARNING: -- unable to kill %s. You may have to do so manually."%self [11:31] i don't like. [11:31] thats just copied from expect.py [11:31] I didn't write that [11:31] In that case, shouldn't we kill -9 the sucker or something and make sure it didn't work. [11:31] Ok, well then I reject the code I wrote :-) [11:31] better :-) [11:32] Who wrote it? [11:32] me. [11:33] well that should still be replaced by kill -9. [11:33] new ticket. [11:33] okay, will do [11:33] i'm making the ticket now. [11:34] #714 -- that kill -9 thing. [11:34] I'll apply your #713 now [11:41] #709-is done, (together with the fix for 700 so the doctests actually pass) [11:42] william_stein: where is the bug triage list? [11:42] Or the correct trac view? [11:42] ncalexan: http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/milestone/sage-2.8.4.3 [11:42] Thanks. [11:43] Our goal is basically to deal everything marked for 2.8.4.3. [11:43] Also, look a lot at the 2.9 bugs. [11:43] there isn't much of a handwritten page yet though. [11:43] volunteer to make one?? [11:43] (I'm not sure it is needed.) [11:44] wstein, #714 close(force=1) already sends a SIGKILL [11:44] so this exception actually should never happen [11:45] How about in the exception check for the process first and if it is still there send more kills? [11:45] Or is this getting overly paranoid, given that when sage quits it will *definitely* kill the process. [11:45] (the zombie killed) sage-cleaner. [11:45] I just replicated janwil's bug entirely in maxima. [11:45] I would suggest: propagate the exception up and wait for bugreports [11:46] this way we have something to replicate [11:46] #712 -- It has absolutely nothing whatever to do with Sage or the pexpect interface [11:46] And for me it isn't sporadic. [11:46] malb -- good idea! [11:46] That's fine by me. [11:46] okay, will attach patch to #714 [11:46] Please add to the exception: "THIS IS A BUG -- PLEASE REPORT. This should never happen." [11:47] okay [11:50] #712 -- I'm done working on http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/712 [11:50] #712 Janwil, I hope you can report this bug to the maxima list. [11:51] I think if you just provide the input file I attached there -- which should make it easy for anybody [11:51] to replicate the problem, then you'll have a chance. [11:51] william_stein: thanx for your work! yes, I can report this as a Maxima problem [11:52] * ncalexan is working on 228, a small notebook bug to do with the preparser. [11:53] ncalexan -- thanks!! [11:53] #228 -- That's a long open bug that needs to be fixed. [11:54] Ralph Greenberg just dropped by my office. He wants us to fix some bugs in his house... [11:54] #713: closed. [11:55] --> robertwb has joined this channel (n=robert@D-69-91-158-249.dhcp4.washington.edu). [11:57] malb -- I'm looking at #507 (which you fixed) [12:00] good, also I've attached a patch to #714 [12:01] --> roed_ has joined this channel (n=roed@RANDOM-FOUR-SEVENTY-FIVE.MIT.EDU). [12:02] hi david roed_ [12:03] hey [12:03] #714: closed. [12:04] cool. Did anyone have suggestions on the design? [12:04] william_stein: I do not quite understand the maxima_bug that you uploaded ... solve(sage3, sage7); refers to sage3, but that is not defined ... am I reading something wrong? [12:05] I forgot to put it in the script. [12:05] Hold on. [12:06] roed: design of what? [12:06] sage3 : [sage0,sage1,sage2] [12:07] ok, that makes sense :) and sage9 and sage10 are not actually needed? [12:07] now the bug doesn't happen for me. Drat. [12:07] what the heck. [12:08] ok, so you were able to reproduce my sometimes-bug-sometimes-not behavior? [12:08] now I am, which sucks. [12:08] well, that was really annoying when I stepped onto it, too [12:09] I was already ready to blame some race conditions or timing or something like that [12:09] dmharvey: I wrote a way to globally control default proof behavior last night [12:10] http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/704 [12:12] janwil -- bug #712 -- please try loading the file j attached to #712. [12:12] (%i1) batchload("/home/was/tmp/j"); [12:12] Maxima encountered a Lisp error: [12:12] roed: also would be nice to have global spelling="british" to prevent ugliness like "behavior" :-) [12:12] every time. [12:12] :-) [12:13] #704 -- proof stuff -- I'm putting that in Sage now. [12:14] dmharvey: lol. There are plenty of other global settings that one might want to control. I'll stick to proof=True/False for now [12:14] roed_: EXAMPLES are supposed to be indented 4 spaces. [12:14] EXAMPLES: [12:14] [4 spaces]sage: input [12:15] [4 spaces]output [12:16] ok [12:17] william_stein: maxima -b j gives something different for me ... [12:18] Inconsistent equations: (2 3) [12:18] -- an error. Quitting. To debug this try debugmode(true); [12:18] Cool. [12:19] well, I did not use SAGEs maxima, but Ubuntu's ... [12:19] ah. [12:19] Try sage's: "sage -maxima". [12:19] It could be a new bug in maxima and sage's maxima is newer. [12:20] ok, now I get CAR: 2 is not a list [12:21] so this "inconsistent equations" shouldn't be happening either? [12:21] janwil -- i don't know. [12:21] dmharvey: do you know if Sage currently includes ZZ_pEX? [12:21] ok :) [12:22] But "CAR: 2 is not a list" is definitely a Maximma bug, since that's a lisp error, and maxima [12:22] should never produce a lisp error. [12:22] roed: I don't believe it does [12:22] roed_ -- did you do "make test" or "sage -testall" after making your proof patch? [12:22] ok, I will try to put together a bug report for maxima [12:22] janwil -- thanks. [12:23] grep -R "ZZ_pEX" * -- nope [12:23] william_stein: I had that remaining issue with sage/rings/morphism.py that was different between sage -t and grep "sage: [12:23] " morphism.py | sage [12:25] ok. [12:25] But I'm running a make test now [12:25] We'll see if it's still there. [12:25] I want to put robert miller's [a..b] patch in. [12:25] Any objections :-) ? [12:26] oops -- robert bradshaw. [12:26] roed -- I'll work on that morphism.py thing as I've applied your patch now. [12:27] sage -t morphism.py [12:27] works fine form me. [12:29] good [12:29] :-) [12:32] --> grout has joined this channel (n=grout@good.math.iastate.edu). [12:32] hi jason. Welcome to SAGE! [12:32] thanks! [12:33] hi jason, i'm writing an answer to your questions on google groups [12:33] the one about the mercurial error? [12:33] aye [12:33] #635: I'm basically done with this, I'm just running ./sage -t -long on sage.math now [12:36] I'm going to continue working on #528 now. This will probably be a few hours work I imagine. [12:37] --> mabshoff_ has joined this channel (n=mabshoff@p5090C126.dip.t-dialin.net). [12:37] Hey, looks pretty busy now. [12:39] does sage -t -long time out after five minutes for a whole file? [12:40] I am not sure, but I think there is a bug in the timeout code when python just "spins" [12:41] probably. [12:41] After you interrupt it (way past 180 seconds) it then tells you that it timed out after [12:41] you send the CRTL-C [12:41] I have seen that behavior with the lazy rings on Solaris 9 [12:41] because it looks like sage -t -long is giving up on ell_rational_field.py after 294.6 seconds, with *** *** Error: TIMED OUT! *** *** [12:42] dmharvey: oops. [12:42] It's probably a bug. [12:42] (there is a bug or miscompilations happening there9 [12:42] dmharvey: I'll fix that. [12:42] it is a bug. [12:42] Some of the regular doctests with elliptic curves come close to the 3 minute timeout on [12:42] on neron by the way [12:43]